Wednesday, 5 October 2011

Tyranid Love

Hi all,

Angryman here, there's an article on Warseer regarding G.W's law-suit and release schedule wranglings but it makes mention of a possible new Tyranid monster, take with a pinch of salt


guess you all are aware that GW started a lawsuit against Chapterhouse to crush the company, because GW feels Chapterhouse is infringing copyright and trademark laws. But instead of going right for the kill, GW lawyers have not been able or willing for almost a year to even state what GW's IP is, that Chapterhouse is accused to have been copying. Details and discussion of the lawsuit can be found in this thread: . The lawsuit itself is NOT the topic of this thread.

But GW seems to have made changes in their release schedule because of the lawsuit.
1.) A.o. Tyranid and Eldar releases are on hold until the legal issues are settled.
2.) Esp. the tyranid second wave including the tervigon kit will not be released as planned. GW will invent a new similar monster with WD rules and release it in that context.
3.) Thunderwolves might not be released at all.
4.) GW gets back to its single release schedule, with every essential unit released at the start, with only some characters following later. The Ogre Kingdom release is a perfect example for that strategy.

Why? At first GW lawyers thought every name, concept and design mentioned in one of their books is per se protected and nobody may do a model based on that without their explicit permission. This proved to be wrong, because only models are protected, not ideas and concepts. Now GW lawyers fear that if they release Tervigons, Thunderwolves etc, the third party companies already doing these might successfully sue them. This is probably wrong as well, but the basis of GW's future strategies. Be aware that StraightSilver mostly presents GW's point of view (plus his own of course), so that the legal situation might be totally different in reality (maybe we have to wait for the end of the Chapterhouse lawsuit). Of course nothing here is officially confirmed by GW (only a hint at the new Tyranid monster), but I am convinced that these rumours are true. And Eldar will be a ways off just yet. Ther are all sorts of legal issues with Eldar and Tyranids that has meant they have been delayed, but that is a complicated issue for another thread unfortunately.

A lot of GW releases are on hold until the whole Chapterhouse mess is resolved. There are issues over copyright which until resolved mean GW won't release some stuff until it's all over which won't be any time soon. This specifically relates to two models in the Chapterhouse range, but I don't want to derail this thread with that. However GW won't release some models but not others and so is having to hold off until they can release them all as a wave.

I cannot obviously corroborate it, but I have heard that is the case from credible sources, but again stuff said over a pint isn't always that reliable, but these are people that would normally know.
And yes that is apparently why the Tyranid wave has been held up and also why GW may never make Thunderwolves. Basically the third party companies that got there first can now challenge GW over copyright, not something they would ever allow to happen.

As I say it may only be a rumour, and unfortunately I can't specifically say where most of my rumours have come from in case I drop anyone in it but they do work for the company and aren't a black or red shirt.
And it is specifically a couple of things, but these are fairly important ones.
It's just that Chapterhouse is attesting that it owns the copyright on a couple of GW concepts because it produced the models first. GW are challenging that but don't want to release their models in case Chapterhouse then challenge ownership.
Of course always take with a pinch of salt, but rumours are rumours I guess.

It's more complicated than that.
Take the Chapter House Doom Seer. It isn't part of the GW vs Chapter House case but it makes a good example.
There isn't a single element of the Doom Seer's design that isn't (a) different to the GW Far Seer models and (b) modelled on existing historical designs.
Despite that it is clearly a "not" Far Seer, based on its overall similarity to GW Far Seer models, if you have seen a GW Far Seer first.
The question the court must answer is whether GW's co-option of historical elements into an overall design is sufficiently original as to create an entirely new copyrightable work, and secondly if this has been achieved, have CH violated the putative copyright by copying the overall design with different individual elements.
You can see how complex these questions can be.

Unfortunately GW were unable to release their Tervigon kit (see my other comments elsewhere) as they had intended and so are having to make do with a White Dwarf bolt on.
Essentially the WD rules will be a Tervigon and something else, and the kit will make both models, a bit like the new Ogre Kingdoms monsters.
At least this is what I have been told, don't know if it's true or not."
For me personally I welcome the news of a new Tyranid monster - providing its worth taking, a heavy slot thats something like a hive guard but BETTER.  I go for better fast attack TMC, the Harpie is shite, always has been and always will be,

All comments welcome


  1. I find it hard to believe that a court case around one or two models could delay/scrap an entire international release.

    BUT - this is America, and they have stupid laws which could easily side with 3rd parties who have essentially exploited GWs IP and legally stolen the copywrite as their own.

    I am all for supporting the smaller companies and GW has its share of issues - but the fact is that Chapterhouse are making money off of GWs IP - and this is now directly affecting the consumers.

    I'm not particulalry looking forward to a new Nid release if it is just a rebranded Tervigon; I/Nid players have had to work around the fact that there is no model and we have converted our own. I'll be seriously annoyed if the new model/rules nerf my conversions.

    It would be much better if they came up with something new and useful which fills some of the existing gaps - anti-tank that isn't Elite for example.

  2. I agree 110% i've converted 2 tervigons myself and would hate to see an offical model come out, the same with the parasite, the doom, warrior prime and the mysetic spore, all of which ive converted. your suggestion of anti tank thats non elite is perfect, i have no fast attack and 1 spare heavey slot in my current nid list.

    As for GW IP, its a sellers market, If GW dont release the models or at least give strong hints they will do then people will buy 3rd party models that fill the gap. Personally i think GW don't release models so that people will convert their own from existing kits, thus making more profit.

  3. I wouldn't see the conversion thing as a problem, unless it's drastically bigger / smaller than the current Carnifex conversions everyone seems to use.

    As long as people use the correct base sizes, then there should be no issue. I.E. If GW release a Tervigon model on an oval base, everyone needs to use the oval base.

    I think the issue is less that people will buy things off a 3rd party model maker, and more the fact they are using GW IP. I don't claim to know much about law and copyright, and it's not worth getting into, just that I can see from a safety point of view that they aren't releasing them until this is over or rebranding them.

    It's only the same as Guard players who've converted Psyker battle squads or Hydras from the FW kit / Aegis defence line. Or Space Wolf players who've converted Thunderwolf Cav from something.

    As long as it's the right size base, looks like it's supposed to be what it is and that it's roughly the same size as the real model (give or take a %) then there's no issue.

    I take it as part and parcel of the Hobby now, I can either wait however many months / years for an official model or I can take the chance on my own - like making 11 scratch built Killa Kans, then they announce plastic Kans, or 10 Scourges out of DE Warriors and Nid Gargoyles, then 2 weeks later the new Scourges come out.

    If you want the shiney stuff from the codex that doesn't have models, you have to accept that converting them, eventually a model will be released.

  4. Nids have enough big gribblies which should be charging forward & getting into combat. With toughness 6 its pretty hard to wound them with meq armies. Safely locked in combat from high strength weapons is where they belong.
    Nids should be a swarm supplemented by 'some' MC's or an elite army, warriors as troops etc. I for 1 prefer the new codex instead of the last incarnation which was either fexverymuch or fexoff, depending which side of the fence u were on.

  5. you're right, the newer codex (and other nid players don't hate me for this) is better than the older one, there is more choice, more options, warriors are worth taking, the trygons are awesome, the hive guard are great, i'm not too happy about the points cost increase but you have to be fair somewhere. The old codex was usually 5 fexes, 2 tyrants and as many gaunts as possible. I run my current nid lists as elite armies which as said are safest in combat. All that being said i'd love to see a new nid beastie thats super mega awesome.

  6. I never played 4th Ed Nids - but I do have the codex and I also prefer the 5th.

    Nids should be huge swarms of gaunts with MCs included as support - but realistically thats just not possible with the 5th Ed codex if you want to be anywhere near competitive.

    The simple fact is that gaunts cant take out mech in any reliable way....maybe if there was some sort of "weight in numbers" numbers rule (for example; the brood gets a single attack against the tank where the strength is half the number of gaunts in the brood at the time - therefore a 20 strong brood of gaunts would get a single S10 attack on a tank) which matches the fluff where a tide of gaunts can drag down a tank, then swarms would be more viable.

    Maybe in 6th Ed....

  7. you used to be able to get a carnifex with 8 twin linked, re-roll to wound S6 shots for 113 points. They were heavy support but if you got one for 115 points or under they were elites, so 6 of them. A winged hive tyrant with SV2, wings and the same weapons at the fex would cost about 180 points. The only draw back was there wasnt much else in the army worth taking. You could also get s T7 SV2 S10 fex at I2 with something like 7 attacks on the charge, i called it the godfex, it was awesome!!!!

    All that aside the new codex gives you more more deoth of choice, better tactical abilities and general variety. The only way i take gaunts now is so i can take tervigons as troops, every other point is for hive guard, trygons, hive tyrants other nasty stuff. Gaunts are only good with Tervigons as they can be built to take down wraithlords

  8. I want to see non-Spawned Gaunts back on the table as an option, rather than just to unlock a Tervigon.

    I like your idea 6th Degree about 1 hit equal scaled dependant on the number in the brood.

    I'm pretty sure they could come up with some Bio-plasma type upgrades that can be given to Gaunts or something similar.

    The only problem I would see with such, is that Gaunts are easy kills unless in cover. A marine unit will still get to make a set Strength attack on a tank with Krak grenades, regardless of if there's 1 man or 10.

  9. I'm sorry but hoping that GW does't release an actual kit to something because you converted it is very very selfish.

    I've converted my fair share of Nids as well but I would definitely like the real thing that's professionally made rather than something I had to kit bash.

    It'll most like look better and I'll always have the converted ones for when I need more of said models in bigger games.

    So yes, bring on the official kits and the new beastie.