Wednesday, 31 March 2010
The Looted Wagon gets a bad rep for a couple of reasons:
- Same cost as a Trukk, which is a FAST vehicle.
- Takes up a valuable Heavy Support slot
- Unreliable nature of "Don't Press Dat!" special rule.
On the other side of the coin, let's look at why Looted Wagons aren't half bad:
- Can give Transport to a non-transportable unit like Tanbustas or Burnas
- 2/3 Cheaper than a Battlewagon.
- Awesome modelling potential
Now, there are 2 clear types of Looted wagon you want to be going for: Transport and Artillery.
I made mine before I'd got to grips with the Ork codex properly, using it in small scale games (500 - 1000), with a couple of Tankbustas inside it. It was made using a Chaos Rhino I'd picked up cheap, with a couple of Ork gunners in the top with Big Shootas and a spiffy Red Paint job. I also chucked on the Chaos Spikes and made it open topped by leaving off the top set of doors and putting an assault ladder in. I wasn't getting too hung up attempting to carve up a Rhino for a 35pt model that rarely gets used. I'd painted it Red for the Red Paint Job upgrade, but then realised I could blag it as a Blood Angels looted Rhino... Orks would go for that as they'd be the fastest!
The issue is with the Don't Press Dat roll, should you be unfortunate enough to roll a 1, you'll hurtle forward until hitting stuff. However... depending on the unit being Transported, this isn't so bad. For example, I've used Burnas in a Looted Wagon before (before I bought Battlewagons), had them speed forwards with the roll of a 1, which, so long as you as concious about what you want to do with the unit, where you face it etc. is probably what you would have done in the movement phase anwyays! For Tankbustas, then it's not so good as you'll lose the ability to shoot the precious Rokkit Launchas, so yeah it is an issue.
Another downfall is that it can only carry 12 guys, meaning it's competing with the Trukk again, and limits your units to 12 / 11 with an attached Character. This means should anything happen to the Wagon, you're under Fearless amount with an expensive unit inside. Bad times.
What I do think though, is Looted Wagons are definitely good in a smaller points arena, anything 1,500 and below - housing a medium size unit of Elite Troops. Or even another dirty trick is just spend the 35pts basic and sit a unit of Grots inside it as last minute objective grabbers, assuming you don't roll 5 turns of "Don't Press Dat" and zoom forward like a loon. Minimise this by leaving them in reserve until then, bring em on and keep em safe for the remainder of the game.
Also don't underestimate the fact the Looted Wagon can take 3 weapons (Skorcha and 2 Big Shootas / Rokkits). Meaning essentially, from glancing hits it's got 3 wounds after it's immobilised. It also means after dumping your troops off where you want them, it can sit for a turn and unleash a hail of fire on enemies. Shame they've made it so Big Shootas are no longer defensive weapons, otherwise it'd be extremely handy.
For the Transport Wagon I'd say to use it for a non-Vital unit (so not Meganobz and a Warboss), something like Burnas or Tankbustas, expect that it will roll forward and account for that and most importantly of all - it's not a Trukk!
The Gun Wagon
I made mine from a Chaos Predator I had lying around spare, stuck an Ork in the top, some spikes and a big wrecking ball for incase anyone got too close. The idea was to paint it in Ultramarine colours as a nod to a friend's Marine army and also that the Orks would loot something blue to save more time painting it, meaning more time killing with it!
The Boomwagon can advance if you want it to, but then it just takes an unlucky roll to send it rolling forward and into assault range, the issue is the reduced range, only being 36" as opposed to longer range Battlecannons the other armies have access to. It also has to put up with still being Light Armour, as opposed to a Marine Predator or a Leman Russ.
Personally, I think these are a steep use of 105pts (+ extras) and I'd be more inclined to just stick a Killkannon on a Battlewagon and use that. Or rely on a unit of Lootas which can multi-task. Also, by taking the Boomgun, you cut out all transport capacity which is a downer, as opposed to the Killkannon on a Battlewagon which still means you can cram 5 Meganobz and a Warboss in there.
I personally still like Looted Wagons, mainly for their cheap transport usage, despite their unreliability in the random roll. I'd simply say, account for that the same way you would account for a bad roll with the Lootas for their amount of shots or a bad Waagh roll for your units.
Simply manouvre the wagon where possible to mitigate the eventuality you'll plough forward. On the bright side, moving forward means you can possibly Tank shock enemies or Ram another vehicle - which you never know, might work in your favour and help.
At the end of the day, Looted Wagons do what they do - they're cheap and expendable, albeit an easy kill point. But don't underestimate taking one for small units, or even chuck some Grots in to give them a bit of mobility!
As always, peace out.
Monday, 29 March 2010
Brother Corbulo sat in the ruined Chapel he knelt in front of the broken effigy of the emperor pleading for answers... for forgiveness. How could he the Sanguinary High Priest of the Blood Angels allow such events to occur. Even now a day later the events of yesterday played through his mind, first the escape of the Death Company during the training exercise, the subsequent rending of the Ultramarine Tactical Squad and then the escalation into a full conflict. Unable to calm Cassius's anger and answer his questions he had no choice but to fight. No choice...the secret had to be kept!! If the knowledge of the red thirst and black rage became known they would be subject to exterminartus, hunted down like animals, them and their successors, all those centuries of fighting for the glory of the Emperor and the Imperium would count for nothing.
Still he knelt he pleaded to the silent emperor for help.....but all he got was the sound of dripping water and a cold breeze. Corbulo knew in his heart they were tainted but it was the fight against that taint that made them stronger, more noble. Still he knew he had failed. He knew... because as he watched the life flow out of Cassius's eye on the plain yesterday, as he watched them all fall down, all the tanks explode and all the blood flow. He knew then at that exact moment he had failed.. he knew because, he had enjoyed it all too much....
The Razorback Cicero stopped at the edge of the forest and cut the power to the Lucifer engines. The silence was deafening the only noise was the Heavy Bolters as turned slowly on their greased runners. The auto visor showed the faded infrared tracks left by the marine, the tracks led into the forest and Corvus would be risking fatal damage to Cicero in that kind of terrain. Not without dozerblades anyway. Corvus was silent he could feel the squads anticipation behind him, the slight shuffle in there seats. Four of the squad had served together since Armageddon the only new addition was Pullo. Pullo had been promoted from the devestator squads to replace Yanis who had succumbed just before planet fall. The squad knew how he and each other thought after 10 years and countless deployment they could almost second guess Corvus's next order. Still he made them wait for it. "Deploy squad, scout pattern, keep the channel open and call if you find anything, he's out there remember!"
"He's here I can smell him." whispered Corvus on the secure channel. All five members in the combat squad fanned out switching to a standard scout pattern. Each one checked his Holy Boltgun and religiously chambered the first round. The forest glowed silver and the frost sparkled like diamonds. The animals were silent they sensed something was different in the forest not natural and as a result didn't want to draw attention to themselves. Corvus knew he was here, he could smell his fear, taste his sweat and blood even through the air filters of his helmet. The squad had followed the marine as he ran from the battlefield. The emperors finest indeed. Corvus had to suppress a shrug, still he still couldn't understand how easily they had crushed them. They were the Ultramarines Fourth Company strict followers of the Codex Astartes the best of the best, like themselves one of the first chapters founded by the Emperor most holy himself. He knew the marine they were chasing was only young maybe a century or so not much more, but to RUN! Such a thing was as an alien concept to him.
"Tracks Sir! 20 meters leading north, Mk5 armour slight drag on the left side indicates a high level of fatigue." Pullo spoke in a thoughtful tone as he always did and casually raised his hand in front of his face rubbing the dirt between his fingers. "These tracks are fresh no more than 10 units old no sign of new frost. We have him!"
"Beware Pullo, be confident in yourself but never doubt you enemy till he is dealt with, overconfidence is a sin that only the emperor can forgive. Now lets hunt him down and finish this sorry affair. Switch to non verbal delta-one search and destroy." Corvus acknowledged the signals from his auto senses and watches as his brother marines slip into the search and destroy role so often practiced. Though Pullo was new he had seen the tracks that the point marine had missed, Corvus made a mental note to arrange Brother Simeon a period of prayer and meditation on the rituals of tracking though he knew Simeon would punish himself enough. The squad moved out as silently as they had arrived. The only sign of there passing was black footprints in the silver frost.
Corvus knew they had to finish this but only the Emperor knew if they would be forgiven.....
(Feel free to comment below subject to demand I will continue.)
Sunday, 28 March 2010
The Kroot have a lot of stats that makes a lot of Tau players never pick them. They have no save, their low leadership and low toughness BUT they have a lot of rules that you give you pause for thought when you next work out a Tau list.
- They can be taken in large units
- They can infiltrate (providing they have no krootox riders)
- They benefit from +1 cover save in wooded areas
- They always move 6" through cover
- Rapid fire weapons
The kroot are better in combat than their Fire warrior counterparts. Their Kroot rifle means they count as having an additional close combat weapon and the ability to take kroot hounds in the same squad enhances this further.
The hounds have higher initiative and more basic attacks, they cost less in points that a Kroot warrior and you can take up to 12 of them in the same squad.
There is an option of a Kroot Shaper
This guy is the veteran sergeant of the Kroot warriors, he comes with a saving throw (albeit a 6+) but gives the squad a higher leadership and has triple the attacks of a normal Kroot warrior. He can also take either a Tau pulse rifle or carbine.
Next is the heavy assault weapon of the Kroot, the Krootox
These guys mount a long range, S7, rapid firing weapon which is perfect for high toughness infantry or light to medium vehicles. They are quite good in close combat too. With S6, W3, A3 they are a really handy addition to the Kroot squad.
Taking all these extras to your basic Kroot warrior squad will cost points that you may think will be better spent elsewhere, but with these additions you are giving your Tau army a close combat ability that can hold objectives, is really difficult to move from cover and with the amount of models in the unit it will survive enemy fire and close combats.
That's it, I hope you think twice about ignoring this useful unit and take it to amaze and dumbfound the opponents of the greater good.
Please feel free to comment.
Friday, 26 March 2010
Looking at the basic statistics of the Termagaunt they are nothing impressive. They are no better than your average Imperial guardsman or Eldar guardian. If you take into consideration their 6+ save then this unit hardly seems worth taking. WRONG. These units have a considerable advantage over other troop choices.
- They can be taken in units numbering up to 30 models. This means they can 'tarpit' other units, holding them up for a turn or 3 and having large numbers they can withstand a lot of enemy fire power.
- They can be given a number of upgrades to enhance their basic statistics.
- They are relatively cheap (points wise).
- Kept in synapse range they become fearless.
- As they are classed as infantry they benefit from the large amount of cover saves now available in 5th edition.
The Termagunt can be equipped with a variety of different weapon and biomorph options (each with their own advantages and disadvantages) that can supplement a variety of Tyranid army builds Each of these choices comes with an increase in points so the price of your humble Termagant increases. This means you have to weigh up the option to have abilities such as furious assault or poisoned attacks with less points available for other units in your list.
Fear not as there is a unit in the newest Tyranid codex that can turn the humble Termagant into an almighty killing machine.
The Tervigon is a monstrous creature which can be given biomorph upgrades just like the Termagant but with a difference. The abilities of these biomorphs are extended to EVERY Termagant unit within 6 inches. This means that you don't have to waste points upgrading individual Termagant units when you can keep them within 6 inches of a Tervigon and benefit from any furious assault and poisoned attacks upgrades for free.
I'm not finished there, if your unit is within 6 inches of the Tervigon it automatically gains counter-charge for free. What does this mean for the Termagant? Well not only do you have a scoring, possibly 30 strong unit of Termagants which can potentially take on monstrous creatures and win, if they are charged they gain the extra attack for counter-assault.
The last ability of the Tervigon is probably the best of the bunch. It can create new units of Termagants for FREE. Yes, FREE. This means that all the abilities and bonuses described above are given to even more units of Termagants. Besides killing the Tervigon there isn't a whole lot your opponent can do about it. This ability does come with one drawback, the upgraded Tervigon isn't cheap. Taking one (or more) in your list does mean that the humble Termagant unit is something to be feared.
That's it, I hope I've inspired other players to use the Termagant or at least comment on this post.
Tuesday, 23 March 2010
I think this was mostly due to GW's effort to stop Ork players using them as a Marine hunter squad. 5 - 15 S8 Ap3 weapons used to mean the squad was going after Marine equivalents. Nowadays, with the exception of playing Nids, there's usually always a vehicle or two on the table to cause issue.
Personally I find the Tankbustas useful for sticking in a Battlewagon and use Cover around the tabletop to prevent their special rule becoming problematic. Generally as well, I find the Tankbustas more useful to actually hunting Tanks... as opposed to trying to take out Marine squads.
Combined with their Tankbusta bombs and a Transport, I find they are more than capable of earning their points back through destroying light Vehicles - especially handy in Kill Points missions, to free up your larger mobs of Boyz.
The majority of my Tankbusta models are simply converted Boyz, with the Rokkit Launchas from the Boyz boxset. I managed to scrape together about 6 of these, then filled out the remainder of the Squad with normal Boyz with Choppas carrying Rokkit backpacks - I like to think of these guys as the Ammo runts of the unit.
These guys break from my normal paintscheme for Waaagh Nobrot in that they have Red dotted around. The main reason for this was to distinguish the models easily on the tabletop, but then also for a bit of fluff as I like the idea that they've spent some time in the Kommando's and been kicked out because they like blowing things up too much!
Every Tankbusta comes with a Rokkit Launcha and Tankbusta bombs as standard, but the first choice is whether or not to take a Nob. Personally it's a no brainer - the bosspole in a small unit (small for an Ork) become invaluable. Also, the option is there for a Power Klaw to ignore armour saves if you end up stuck in Close Combat. Most times I don't give him the Power Klaw for points reasons, but it's definitely worth upgrading a Tankbusta to a Nob - keep his Rokkit launcha and just give him a Bosspole.
The second option you have for the squad are unique weapons to the Tankbustas - Tankhammers. S10 melee weapons which stike at initiative order. Unlucky for the Tankbustas, these don't ignore armour saves, but in recent games the guarenteed S10 hits on vehicles has been excellent in dispatching enemy vehicles that the Ork ballistic skill fails to dent, and removes some of the random element of the Tankbusta bombs.
I can imagine that some people will prefer to keep the Rokkit Launchas, but I like to take 2 of these. They also make Characters think twice about the unit, provided the Bustas get lucky.
The other option you can decide for your Tankbustas is to go for a Bomb Squig or two. I like the concept and fluff behind the Bomb Squigs, but they're far too much of a liability for me to use often, especially since I run a fair few Ork vehicles! I do like the fact they can mash a vehicle and leave the Bustas free to attack and destroy other units.
I've been running the following squad in a club league:
- Nob with Rokkit Launcha
- 2 Tank Hammers
I've found the unit to be quite handy, destroying numerous vehicles in games.
Another pretty nifty trick is they're good for fighting against the Tyranids with, due to the fact you're no longer bound by the Glory Hogs rule. Meaning you can get a lot of high strength Ap3 shots off against the Monstrous Creatures.
Most people like to complain about Tankbustas - same way they do against a fair few units in the Ork Codex - but I've given them a chance and quite enjoy them and likely intend to keep them in lists in future.
So in short - show the Tankbustas some love! Get them on the table for a game or two, and be clever about the Glory Hogs rule. Use them for what they intended, as opposed to a bunch of Marine Hunters.
Saturday, 20 March 2010
- 11 year old codex which doesn't have big shiny super units.
- Large amount of Metal miniatures
- Generally ugly range of miniatures
- Limited range of competetive playstyles.
That doesn't mean to say they're the most unpopular army though. Not by a long shot. Every time the DE rumours crop up, they're met by tons of people saying "I've wanted to start this army for years! But the models and old codex put me off!". So I think it's high time GW got around to it and do what they can.
I feel that provided they're not ridiculously Uber powerful, to shift models over the counter, and can support varied playstyles then they'll do extremely well. Plus, if they stick to the recent concept art we've seen of the Dark Eldar (namely, the image above and the one in 5th ed rulebook) then we should be in for some absolutely awesome models.
So does anyone have any suggestions what they'd like to see done with the Dark Eldar, both in terms of rules and in terms of miniatures?
Either way, I look forward to seeing them on the tabletop post-Britcon!
Tuesday, 16 March 2010
First off they can have a warlock assigned to them,
and you have a scoring unit with psychic abilities, backup up by a monstrous creature and a platform that allows heavy weapons (you can choose from a variety of very effective weapons) to move and shoot. Not bad for your basic guardian.
This makes them a close combat unit rather than a shooting unit. They take pistols and close combat weapons but loose the heavy weapon platform. All is not lost as they can still take the warlock (who has powers to help them in combat) and if you take a wraithlord (keeping him close to the warlock) it can be geared up for close combat. Now you have a guardian unit that can storm enemy objectives and bases backed up by the warlock and a hard hitting monstrous creature.
Keeping an Avatar close by also make Eldar guardians fearless (so no pinning or morale tests)
The guardians have access to one of the best transports in the 40K universe, the Wave Serpant
Its a fast moving vehicle with access to upgrades to make it move survivable and a varity of twin link weapons to either support your troops or hunt enemy armour.
Thats it. I hope I've imparted my small knowledge of the humble guardian and inspired people to take them or at least comment on the article.
This week, I played against Ultramarines, an extremely well played tactical marine based army in our 40k league at MAWS. The scenario was a random roll 1 to 6 on our mission chart, and we ended up playing Annihalation with Dawn of War deployment, which I ended up having the first turn again.
With a list revolving around 2 big mobs of 30 Boyz and 2 Battlewagons I decided I'd set up off the board and run like mad to get to the other side. The marines however, being the canny sorts they were, deployed in the opposite corner to the bulk of the Ork army - meaning the journey across the board was now even longer.
Aside from a couple of stray lascannon shots and Whirlwind salvos from the Marines, nothing much happened until turn 5, when the WAAAAGH was called! Shooting was left out, aside from my 15 Lootas managing to immobilise a Drednaught. All in all, the remainder of the 30 Boyz mobs assaulted a tactical squad each, the Burna squad destroyed a Sternguard unit, the Tankbusta wholloped the Drednaught and the Deff Rolla crushed the Land Raider into a small pile of scrap - leaving Cassius and his tactical squad bodyguard in the open.
Turn 6 and it's 6 - 0 to the Orks in Kill Points. Ultramarines turn - Cassius steps into the fight.
Using his combi-flamer, he manages to burn a shocking amount of Burna boyz and Slugga Boyz meaning both squads are dangerously low to being destroyed. 1 of the Big Meks gets flatenned by a Tank Shocking Rhino in attempting death or Glory. Terminators wipe out a remainder of a squad of 30 boyz.
Then the turning moment of the game - Cassius and his tactical squad, through clever movement on the Ultramarine part and shoddy tactics on the Ork part, ends up assaulting the remaining 5 Burnas and Mek, 6 Ork Boyz and 10 Tankbustas. The Orks lose 8 casualties compared to the Ultramarines 2.
Cue the fleeing Ork horde after needing Snake eyes, even with bosspole re-rolls! 3 kills points thanks to one assault!
It would have ended there 6 - 6 thanks to 1 pivotal turn for each player, had a Tactical squad from the Ultramarines not fled from the table due to the 6" from an enemy rule.
All in all, one of the most enjoyable games I've played for a long time and I take my Orky hat off to Chaplain Cassius. We shall meet again! WAAAAAGH!
Monday, 15 March 2010
Sounds pretty cool, 40k expansion free with White Dwarf focusing entirely on Vehicles... what do you guys think?
As June's White Dwarf contains a new expansion, it promises to be very popular. Guarantee your copy by subscribing here today.
Sunday, 14 March 2010
Range 12". Strength 8. Ap 1. Assault 1. Melta(2 x D6 Armour Pen at half range.)
Lets look at this short range one shot weapon gonna mash most armour and kill any troop instantly kill T4 multi wound and take a wound off MC's. A good gun aimed at vehicles and good against MEQ and TEQ. Also as an assault weapon means you can assault after meaning potentially more damage to units. Very short range one shot weapon great for armour but bad against hordes or large squads.
Range 24". Strength 7. Ap 2. Rapid Fire (2 Shots at <12".) Gets Hot(Roll a 1 take a save.) Now straight away we have a gain of 12" on the range and gain a shot close up. You take a a slight hit on the strength and the Ap, but this means you are still wounding most infantry and Mc's on 2's & 3's. Now the gets hot roll basically you have 1/6 chance of taking wound when firing. You get your armour save.
Now I'm going to talk about a concept which I believe the Marine Codex was designed for flexibility. Looking at a Tactical squad you have a Sgt, Special Weapon, Hvy Weapon & 7 MARINES WITH BOLTERS!!!!! Now think a marine squad main component is the lowly Bolter marine s4 ap5 rapid fire gun. They are designed to cause damage to infantry they have Frag and Krak grenades to deal with vehicles etc. Basically the Plasma Gun fits, if you fire Melta then assault your making the rapid fire Bolter redundant, might as well give them all pistols and leave it as that. For vehicle or heavy armour there are items in the codex better designed to deal with these threats Multi Melta Attack Bikes, Land Speeders etc.
My argument here is that a Melta provides a 1 shot weapon good against armour and maybe pre assault when firing pistols (losing 7 rapid fire shots) but the Plasma Gun provides a weapon which fits in with the other 7 members of the squad and still provides an anti armour aspect not to be sniffed at. As lets face it Tacticals are the 'jack of all trades, master of none.' they should be used as such to support other better suited units such as Assault=Vanguard or Honour Guard. Shooty= Sternguard & Shooty Command Squad.
Melta has its place but since the rise of 5th edition I think the Plasma Gun has taken a nose dive. Both are niche weapons and have to be applied to the situation but i think to use just Melta is a mistake. The Plasma Gun nicely bridges the gap between a bolter and melta providing a happy medium and little reduntancy within the squad. Anyway enough of a rant now everbody will agree the worse thing about Plasma is the 'Gets Hot' roll. Now what about a way of lessening it effects. Now I have your attention. Well you will have to wait till next time for that one. Sorry if I have gone on. Now just through reading this I realise I myself are guilty of many of these things redunancy & lack of flexilbilty have think about your own army are you guilty?
(Bro Cpt. Ventris.)
Friday, 12 March 2010
Since the original article was first posted, the codex has been released, I've watched the Tyranids in a few games and played a game against them myself, so I thought it's only fair to include some thoughts on the army and also some ways to react to this.
Termagaunts and Tervigons
One thing I really, really like about the new Tyranid codex is they've put the shift back on some of the lower rungs of the Tyranid Bio-Ladder. This is evident in the Gaunt / Tervigon combo that I came up against on Monday night.
Tervigons, with their ability to spawn more units (always a bad thing) and the fact they can give units within 6" certain special rules mean even a unit of lowly Gaunts can now give you grief. Then on top of that you deal with the Tervigon being a troop choice AND a Monstous Creature, stat line included.
These are nasty, I think in the next game they'll be a far higher priority target... Gaunts are still easy enough to kill, but they sure can pack a punch nowadays.
Zoanthropes are again vastly improved in the new codex and I really like that, more Psykers on the board to me is a good thing! Their Lance ability is extremely dangerous to the Trukks and Battlewagons, even more so if they show up in a Spore.
Doom of Malantai
This guy caused me so, so much grief on Monday night. Deepstriking in behind my Lootas, I attempted to counter him with a round of Grot shooting and assault. But his special ability soon took it's toll, ripping a few Lootas down per turn and my choice not to move them to retain their rate of fire was my inevitable downfall.
He's big, he's bad and extremely scary. It's really easy to get Rabbit in the headlight syndrome with this guy. High toughness, lots of wounds and also regeneration. Also he packs a ton of shooting...
The best thing to do for this guy is focus on the rest of the force until he shows up, then either attempt to ignore him, or send a large chunk of your force towards him to finish him off - before he tears you apart.
This guy is still super hard to deal with, but losing the old style Warp Scream helps Ork mobs like Burnas and Nobz, significantly.
The downside is, these guys are usually packing Bonesword / Lash Whip combos, meaning your Warboss getting on the wrong end of this chap can mean he goes Poof.
This guy is a good target for a tarpit mob of Ork Boyz, same way the Carnifexes were in the previous edition.
I'll try and keep this updated each time I play the Tyranids and facing some new units. I'm eager to face some of the other units, especially like the Harpy, Tyrannofex and Gargoyles - then dreading seeing the Swarmlord in action.
Next time I'll have to bring Warboss Nobrot onto the field of battle, as opposed to his Mek sidekicks!
Thursday, 11 March 2010
This week however, continuing moving through the Elite slots of the Orks, I figured I'd talk about the proper 'Eavy hitters of the Ork Elites - Meganobz.
As with the rest of my army, the concept of the Meganobz is that they are Lootas to the extreme, taking Beaky Terminator armour, doing some Mek work and coming out with a 2+ armour save.
These guys were made from a kit-bash between a box of Ork Nobz and a squad of Assault on Black Reach terminators. Torso and legs were Terminator, Arms and Heads are the Orkz. Then top this off with a ton of armour plates from the Boyz and Nobz boxsets, along with some vehicle glyphs. The only let down I have with these guys is I couldn't be bothered trying to make a suitable Twin Linked shoota for each one, so copped out and gave them a Slugga so I could get them on the table faster.
Each of them is then painted in a different Marine chapter's colour - specifically the other chapters that people play at MAWS! Red for James' Blood Angels, Blue for Marcus Ultramarines, Black for Ste's Black Templars, Bone for Rob's Deathwing and a Dark Grey as a test bed for my future Marine army, Space Wolves.
Meganobz on the table however are one of my personal favourite units in the Ork codex, though not so much for rules more the concept of huge clanking Orks with piston driven weaponry.
They're often looked down upon because of the points cost when compared to Nob Bikers. For the extra 5pts you get the mobility of the Bikes, the extra toughness, a free 4+ armour save, combined with better weapons, an extra attack due to CCW and Slugga and then your 4+ exhaust cloud cover save. Hard to see the MANz fighting back from that really... but they can fight back in their own way.
What you lose in mobility and options with the MANz, you get back in sheer brute force. Everyone comes with a Twin-Linked shoota, bypassing the shoddy Ork Ballistic Skill, which can be upgraded to a Skorcha or Rokkit, meaning they can thin out a few hordes / elite troops before hitting them.
They also get a points break on the Power Klaw, compared with standard Nobz. Nob + Eavy Armour + Power Klaw = 50pts. MANz are 10pts less than this, and give you the 2+ save, in a trade-off for being Slow and Purposeful.
There are 3 significant weaknesses the MANz face though: Lack of Bosspoles, FNP & Cybork Bodies and Slow & Purposeful, which result in needing to take extra units to work around this.
The first thing to do for this unit is buy a Mega Armoured Warboss, Cybork Body, Attack Squig and most importantly - a Bosspole. Not only is this guy going to make your MANz a scoring unit, but the bosspole will prevent the clankers running off if they take a loss or two.
The alternative option, which also bypasses the Cybork body and Feel No Pain issue, is to take Mad Dok Grotsnik, adding much needed Cybork Bodies to the unit, alongside giving them Feel No Pain. However, it means using up a hefty chunk of HQ points on Grotsnik and his rage special rule is something I don't like in my lists.
The third option for a unit leader is to take the almighty Ghazgkull Thraka, but he is a hefty points cost and doesn't resolve your Cybork / FNP issue. However, he adds in sheer brute force. If you've got the points, I'd go for him personally.
So once you've chosen your appropriate leader to the Unit, be it Warboss, Grotsnik, Thraka... or even maybe a Mega Armoured Mek with KFF.... your MANz then need a ride to get across the battlefield, to negate their Slow & Purposeful rule.
The first transport is the Trukk. A bargain for the points costs and necessary upgrades (Red Paint, Armour Plates) meaning your MANz can speed across the battlefield extremely quickly. But what the Trukk offers in speed, it sacrifices for in durability, even bolters can cause the Trukk issues. For a big Hammer unit like the MANz, you don't want them to be foot slogging from turn 1 if you can avoid it.
The other, and most likely, transport option is the mighty Battlewagon - which if I am right in saying - MANz can take as a dedicated transport, leaving your Heavy Support choices free for more Wagons, Kanz and Dredz. AV14 on the front, backed up by the possibility of a KFF somewhere along the lines means this is almost guarenteed to deliver it's quarry to the fight. I'd go for Red Paint Job, 2 Big Shootas and a Deff Rolla, along with a Boarding Plank for the Warboss to maybe snip an enemy somewhere along the lines, as opposed to jumping off to attack them.
Despite the fact they're living in the shadow of Nob Bikers, I'm eager to give the Meganobz a few runs out. 2+ save, power klaw weilding Orks, backed up by a heavy hitter like Thraka seem like an excellent hammer unit and an excuse to buy another Battlewagon!
Wednesday, 10 March 2010
The marine stopped he had been running for hours maybe even a full day as it was now night and the moon was high in the sky. The night was cold and he was in a temperate jungle. Everything shone silver and looked like it was covered in diamonds it reminded him of the frost on the mountains of Macaggre and of simpler times when things made sense.
He had to make a plan his brain was telling him he was in the jungle west of the battlefield, he only hoped no one had seen him run. plans and ideas formed in his mind he was a space marine a one man army, a weapon of the Emperor. As ideas and plans formed his training dismissed many as foolhardy or just plain suicide. He remembered in the pre-battle briefing that there was a communications array to the north defended by Local Defence forces if he could get there before the Blood Angels he might be able to get a message out. But first rest and rations he had to rebuild his strength. As he breathed he noticed the noises of the jungle had stopped it was silent..... It can't be?? How did they follow him so far he was so careful...Still there was no disguising the fact they had returned.........
Tuesday, 9 March 2010
Just been to pre order mine and also a couple of their new models to merge into my existing 8-10 k points. Will wait and see what else the codex has to throw at us once I get a look at it. A copy of it and the new sprues will be on view at your local Games Workshop from Saturday.
First and foremost the thing that defines the Blood Angels -- The Death Company. This unit is now a stand alone troops choice. As its points cost is not included within the rest of the army it will be far easier to have a competitive list in a small points game. However, you are limited to one squad, but it can range from 1 - 30 marines !!!!!
If you love the Death Company and can't bear to field an army with only one squad of 30 then this guy, Astrorath the Grim, removes the one squad limit and you can take more. It didn't say if there were any restrictions on these extra units so I'm hoping that means I can take 6 squads of 30 Death Company marines. He also has a strength 6 power weapon.
The Sanguinar, Exemplar of the host --- The main rule I can remember about this guy is that he has gives anyone friendly units within 6" +1 attack. I think it was this model that if invulnerable saves are passed they have to be taken again. I'm gonna save myself £12 here & use my pre heresy Sanguinius model for this.
The Sanguinary Guard -- An awesome honour guard / vanguard squad. Wrist mounted weapons so they can fire & still use their 2 handed master crafted relic blades (so re-rolls, plus strength & +1 attack for 2 weapons).
Mephiston --- Certainly lives up to his name as the lord of death more than ever. He goes to s6 t6 with w5. He still doesn't look to have an invulnerable save though. With any hope there is a raft of new psychic powers and one will give him this. Hopefully he will still be able to use 3 psychic powers and his force weapon in the same turn.
Furioso Dreadnought --- Blood Angels will not be getting the Iron Clad or a separate Venerable Dreadnought but the Furioso is much improved on the current/old codex and is still unique to the Blood Angels. It is an amalgamation of the Iron Clad, venerable & furioso dreadnought . It has front & side A 13 of the iron clad & increased WS & BS of 5 like venerable but gets the +1 attack for 2 close combat weapons. The BS I'm not bothered about because this baby will be running with that extra +1 Armour & hopefully venerable damage re roll as standard if should be pretty survivable. Hopefully the Death Company option remains with its D3 extra attacks or seeing as everything is being hiked up why not D6.
Gabriel Seth (Flesh Tearers Chapter Master) --- This will be a welcome bonus for those non-first founding commanders. To be honest after reading the new Blood Angel books I got to liking this guy but will not field him as I'm a pure blood lol.
Monday, 8 March 2010
Also included there are Plastic Deathcompany and plastic Baal Pred.
Sunday, 7 March 2010
From the wording it sounds like it can transport 2 seperate units AND a Dreadnaught (via a grapple on the bottom) which is a bit mental.
Aside from that, it's nothing too major... so you don't get the extra D6 from Melta weapons? Boo-hoo.. take a Lascannon. It's only AV12 so it's nothing massive...
Plus if rumours are led to be believed, it's a Heavy Support choice in there. Basically, you're looking at a Valkyrie that can transport 2 units, with better weapons and immune to extra D6 from Melta Weapons.
At the bottom you can see the word "Assault" before it gets cut off, so I assume then it's an assault vehicle. But I'd guess there's a restriction saying that they can't assault from a deep-striking Stormraven...
Not long to go now chaps!
Saturday, 6 March 2010
Me !!! I think I'll wait & see until I can get a look at the new dex - given up on the rumour mill front now -Far too many. Before anyone posts a comment yes I know I just added to it
Personally I'll be happy if the blood angel codex isn't changed too much, but this many rumours can't be wrong. So expect at your next gaming competition or people playing in GW stores around the country to see the greatest marines of all time and nid's by the bucket load. That's until the next over hyped codex comes out with god knows what included to make each one better than the last. At this rate by the time they get back round to vanilla marines it'll include Emperor class Titans (for 400 points ) and while GW are at it they might throw in the emperor himself !!!!!!
Friday, 5 March 2010
I will add my thoughts in RED
Release 8 April 2010
Written by Matt Ward
Army-wide Special Rules
Combat Tactics – As per C:SM
And They Shall Know No Fear – As per C:SM
Red Thirst - Almost all BA units have it. After deployment roll D6 for each unit with the Red Thirst rule. Any unit that rolls a 1 must exchange Combat Tactics for Furious Charge and Fearless.
Descent of Angels - Anything with a Jump Pack can re-roll reserve rolls and will only Scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
So far sounds good, Descent of Angels makes me think of Dark Angels though, but a good rule for Blood Angels
Weapons & Wargear:
GW have said there will be a range of specialist wargear for the Blood Angels
Infernus Pistols – 6” Melta pistols
Hand Flamers - S3 AP6 Template
Death Mask - Force a Ld check at -2. Fail and fight at WS1.
Over-charged Engines are gone, replaced with Fast on some vehicles.
Blood Talons - close combat weapons on the Furioso Dreadnought. A dreadnought CCW with a Stormbolter, likely upgradeable to Meltagun/Heavy Flamer.
Magna-Grapples - A R12” S8 anti-vehicle harpoon weapon for Dreadnaughts. On a successful Penetrating or Glancing hit, the target vehicle is dragged 2D6" toward the Dreadnought, facing unchanged. Will only pull a vehicle as far as the edge of Terrain or 1" away from (friendly?) models. It has been said it can cause Tank Shock.
Sounds alot like Sisters of battle, not too impressed with this "Magna-Grapple" but nothing too scary
The Sanguine Sword – Gives Librarian S10
Wings of Sanguinius – As per GW PDF
Quickening - As per C:SM
Unleash Rage - Gives unit Preferred Enemy Blood Boil – A successful Psychic test causes a wound on an enemy unit, allocated by enemy Player. If the Psychic Test is passed with a result of 5 or less, The Blood Angels player allocates the wound.
Unnamed - Draw a line of length 4D6” from the Librarian ignoring friendly models. Enemy models take a single S8 AP1 Lance hit.
Unnamed - Units within 6” get a 5+ cover saveUnnamed – One enemy squad has to take a Ld test to Move, Run, Shoot or Assault.
Some good rules here
Dante, Lord of the Blood Angels – He and his squad don't scatter when Deep Striking. He doesn't have Eternal Warrior. Death Mask of Sanguinius – As per regular Death Mask, plus pick a single Independent Character at the start of the game and cause -1 to WS, A, I and Ld. Gives his squad Hit & Run Allows Sanguinary Guard as Troops
He sounds like a decent choice even without Eternal Warrior
Gabriel Seth, Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers – Captain stat line Armed with a very large Chainsword (S8, rending), Bolt Pistol and Iron Halo. Can forgo his normal attacks and cause one auto-hit on everything in base to base contact with him. If an enemy rolls 1 to hit him, he hits back with a basic close combat attack. Causes all units with Red Thirst to suffer it on a 1-3.
This guy sounds like he could be fun especially he special rule.
Mephiston, Lord of Death – WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W5 I7 A~5 Ld10 Sv 2+ Around the cost of a Land Raider. Armed with Psychic Hood, Plasma Pistol, Force Weapon, Frag & Krak grenades. May cast 3 psychic powers per turn, Transfixing Gaze - Does not require a psychic test. A single Independent Character must take a Ld test with a -4 modifier. If they fail Mephiston may re-roll failed hits and wounds. The enemy may fight back if they survive.
OMG WTH that is rediculous Stats, 5 Wounds at T6 he is a Trygon gone MAD, expect to see him around alot, guess he is the Lord of Death though, will be interesting to find out how to take him down. Appears to have no Inv save which is only fair.
Tycho, Captain of the 3rd Company – Hits like a Monstrous Creature (at S4) and can re-roll a single To-Wound roll. His Combi-Melta has access to Sternguard special ammo. Apparently there are multiple versions such as Death Company in the codex.
Reclusiarch Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Librarian – No news yet
Company Captain – No news yet
Honour Guard – No news yet
Astorath the Grim – Armed with Power Axe, pistol and Jump Pack Described as an Uber Chaplain. Apparently, if he is with the Death Company, they can re-roll Hits and Wounds.
Sanguinor, Exemplar of the Host – A
“mysterious avenging angel” armed with 2-handed master crafted Power Sword (possibly S6), Bolt Pistol, and Jump Pack. WS8 ST5 T4 A5 Sv2+ 3++Forces successful invulnerable saves in close combat to be re-rolled. Can nominate an enemy HQ and get re-rolls to all To-Hit and Wound rolls on that model. All friendly units within 6” get +1 attack. Blessing of Sanguinor - One sergeant in your army has +1 to WS, S, W, I, A and Ld
Sounds alot like the Swarmlord, i'm hoping for a high price with saves like that and forces re-rolled Inv.
Chaplain – Death Company get to re-roll to-wound and to-hits on the charge with the Liturgies of Hate
Terminator Squad – No news yet
Terminator Assault Squad – No news yet
Dreadnaught – Can upgrade to Venerable, Furioso, and Furioso Librarian Furioso Librarian have a single Blood Talon and Force Weapon, they have to choose which to use in close combat, but they DO get the +1 attack for having multiple CCWs. They can take 2 Blood Angel psychic powers (including Wings of Sanguinius) and has a Psychic Hood.
Flying Dreadnoughts! Not too keen on the Libby Dread but will have to see how they play.
Techmarine – No access to the Thunderfire Cannon
Vanguard Veterans – A bit cheaper than C:SM. No Relic Blades, but access to the Glaive Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons). Able to take Hand Flamers. Can supposedly take an Exsanguinator
Sternguard Veterans – As per C:SM
Sanguinary Guard – Armed with wrist-mounted Angelus Boltguns (12" S4 AP4 Assault 2), Glaives Encarmine (master crafted Power Weapons) Jump Packs and Artificer Armour. May take Death Masks. Max squad size of 5.
My only Problem with these is the Wrist mounted guns... too much like Grey Knights for me. i might have to do a Counts as army using these guys
Sanguinary Priests – Unit of 1-3.
Brother Corbulo – Upgrade to Sanguinary Priests. Same profile. Armed with a S5 rending Chainsword. Red grail gives Feel No Pain and Furious Charge within 6”. Supposedly only gets FNP himself on a 2+
The rest sounds good.
Assault Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst
Tactical Squad – As per C:SM but have Red Thirst
Death Company – Furious charge, fearless, relentless, FNP, 3-30 models, 0-1 choice. Armed with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon. Can take Power Weapons and Power Fists. Can take Jump Packs. Cost with Jump Packs is the same as it is in the GW PDF. Not a Scoring Unit
30 models!!! bloody hell!
Lemartes, Guardian of the Lost – Upgrade character for Death Company. Armed with Crozius, Bolt Pistol and Jump Pack. Gets stronger if he loses one of his two wounds.
Death Company Dreadnaught - May take one for every 5 Death Company in the army. Several different weapon options including Magna-Grapple, Blood Talons (some form of Melta weapon), etc.
Scout Squad – Standard Scouts. No “Mad Max” style ones
The rest sounds fair
Baal Predator – Pretty much the same, but is Fast, has the Scout USR, and the option for a turret-mounted Flamestorm Cannon.
I like the transfer to fast rather than Overcharged, it was always good to see it fail but will make the game run smoother. They seem to be going for a Flame theme with these blood angels, makes sense to the "combat" specialists.
Bike Squadron – No news yet
Attack Bike Squadron – No news yet
Land Speeder – No news yet
Land Speeder Storm – Likely Added
Devastator Squad – No news yet
Whirlwind – As per C:SM
Predator – No news yet
Vindicator – As per C:SM but are Fast
Stormraven Gunship – Armour 12 all around, Skimmer, Fast, Assault Vehicle, Deep Strike. Armed with twin-linked Assault Cannons, twin-linked Heavy Bolters and 4 Bloodstrike Missiles.Ceremite Plating make is immune to Melta weapons' extra penetration due to being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry temperaturesBloodstrike Missiles Range 72” S8 AP1 Heavy 1, One-shot Transports up to 12 Marines (Jump Troops take up 2 slots) and up to 1 Dreadnought at the same time.Transported Dreads take a single S4 hit on rear armour if the Stormraven explodesModels can be deployed at any point of the move, even if it goes flat out but they must take a Dangerous Terrain test (Jump Pack Troops have a better chance of passing). Models deployed in this way cannot assault.No fire points4 access points (front, sides and top (?))May replace Heavy Bolters with either twin-linked Multi-Melta or twin-linked Typhoon Launchers. May also take Hurricane Bolter sponsons.
This... this is just wrong, its a Thunderhawk, and barely any smaller from the sounds of it. I expect Land Raider and higher costs for this, around 250-300pts
Rhino – 50 pts. As per C:SM but are Fast
Razorback – No news yet
Drop Pod – No news yet
Land Raider – Standard, Crusader and Redeemer. Only available as Dedicated Transports. Can supposedly Deep Strike somehow.
Deep Striking Land Raiders?!?! We were joking about Deep Striking a Rhino, didn't think GW would take it seriously and make some Deep Striking Land Raiders!?!?
Well theres the newest rumours, Enjoy!
When the codex came out, a lot of people immediatly chucked Lootas into their armies. Their possible extremely high rate of fire made up for the very lacking Ork ballistic skill, combined with the fact they were a heavy weapons team that could hold their own in close combat if necessary, all for a very cheap 15pts.
The first lists I saw on the net, all swore by 2 units of 15 Lootas, meaning in a single turn, there was the chance of 90 S7 AP4 shots hitting the enemy, which can be absolutely devastating. Even just a single shot from each Ork is formidable enough to cause problems to light armour and anything with a 4+ save.
Initially I was dubious of the internet listings claiming that Lootas were awesome and everyone should be taking them. I dismissed them mostly due to the fact they're not scoring and are required really, to be sat at the back of my army shooting enemies as opposed to running up and crumping them in the face.
First things first, I converted myself a unit out of 2 boxes of Boyz, to save myself some cash as opposed to paying £45 to get 12 Lootas and 3 Meks (as I find the Meks are a useless upgrade to a Loota squad).
They were made simply from standard Ork Boyz with as many standing straight legs as I could gather, along with numerous Looted Eldar, Space Marine and Imperial Guard Weaponry .
Then, so I could use them as either 3 small units of 5, or 1 large unit of 15, I gave the Lootas some looted Space Marine backpacks painted in different chapter coloures - Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. That way, during gameplay I can easily tell each unit apart from one another, or make them cohesive and avoid looking like Orks with 'Eavy Weapons that might be from Boyz Mobs.
As I said previously, I don't use Lootas as much as some other Ork players, prefering a more assault driven force, but I'm being swayed to their use with the sheer amount of Transport vehicles I am seeming to face each game.
The Lootas ability to shred through anything lower than AV12 is a blessing to the Orks, as it means I can then send the Boyz in against whatever spills out of the transport, or unleash another hail of fire from a Slugga weilding mob. The tag team of these two units combined can wipe a full unit off the table without even the need for an assault.
Against Marine Equivalent armies, the Lootas are more suited to targeting transports, Dreadnaughts and maybe even Bike squads, just to attempt to bypass the Toughness barrier.
Against non-Marine armies, the Lootas can absolutely destroy a unit of Firewarriors, Guardians, Guardsmen and Gaunts with just a single shot each, let alone when you start pumping out double or triple that.
One of the major things to be wary of when using Lootas is that obviously, they have to remain still to be of any use to you. Otherwise they're just a very expensive Boyz mob.
This is most prominent in the deployment phase, where you will want to be looking for a central deployment, in an area providing cover from incoming fire, such as Woods or a Bunker.
I say to keep them central, as not only does it give you a good lane of fire, but will also force your opponents to be wary of this central avenue, forcing them to either split their force to either flank, or commit themselves to a single flank - both situations you can exploit to your advantage. Another advantage of central deployment stops outflanking / infiltrating troops from reaching your precious Lootas as easily... as happened to me in a game once.
The last question before summing it all up is - To Mek... or Not to Mek?
The only upgrade a unit of Lootas can have is if they wish to swap 1 - 3 Lootas for Meks, which really... I don't see the point of.
It can come in handy should you play a lot of Terminator army builds, where the 3 Kustom Mega Blastas can come in handy, or by upgrading to 3 Big Shootas, sacrificing the random element and range for 3 guarenteed shots. Unfortunately, they can't take a Bosspole, which would have been really handy on the unit as once they take a few casualties, they're prone to running.
I really like the random element to the Lootas, from where they can be dangerous, all the way up to destructive to anything they manage to set their weapon sights onto.
At the moment though, if they were scoring, it would be awesome. I'd happily sit them on a home objective and let them loose on anyone coming my way, but with the lack of scoring, high cost (compared to a mob of Boyz) for camping back, I normally prefer to leave them for bigger games.
I do, however like the idea of 2 units of Lootas, with a Grot unit in the middle of them for holding objectives and mobile cover. Hmmmm... we shall have to see!
What do you guys think of Lootas and any past experience of using them or playing with them?
Thursday, 4 March 2010
So whilst my work PC was updating, I went for a wander around the Internetz and came across... low and behold... an Ork count-as Necron army! Especially after my post about Necrons yesterday, it really got me excited about what other possibilities you can have count-as Orks.
First things first, here's an example pic of Necr-Ork Warriors:
I really love the whole Steampunk, scrap junker idea behind the army and for some reason, I think the Lord model is the most awesome stand out thing there, simply because it looks like a junky muscular Necron Lord. The army looks like it could be some amalgamation Orks and Necrons creating some clanking Metal terrors, as opposed to the Terminator with no flesh.
What other armies could the Orks count-as?
Space Marines - Highly drilled Orks in heavy plate armour, possibly some kind of Stormboyz company that has expanded beyond the realms of Rokkit packs?
Imperial Guard - Most of it is quit obvious, I think the Blood Axes deal with the Imperium from time to time for loot and whatnot, so you could happily imagine a Warboss lording it up and issuing orders out to the troops.
Chaos Marines - Simple really, Brutish Orks that have been driven to Chaos during their time on a system. Marks really help to drive this home, I can imagine Khornate Orks wearing less plate armour and having furious charge (the bulk of troops would be made of these), then festering Plague Orks lurking at the back somewhere able to take a hail of fire.
Chaos Daemons - Can Orks be altered by the warp? In the Ork codex there's a story about Warboss Tuska who's ship ends up on a Daemon world where every day the planet is reset and filled with Khorne Daemons. What if they eventually got out, warp mutations in tow? Embodiments to Gork and Mork with the Greater Daemons, alongside Heralds of Khorne acting as Warboss generals.
Eldar - Eldar gets a bit tricky, since the Ork army is already made up of specialist units similar to the Eldar, but the main problem is the low toughness... Maybe they're a cadre made up of exiled Weirdboys and Warpheads?
Tau - Orks like guns, simple. Tau have lots of guns. Have the Kroot equivalent as your Kommando squads, then your Tau Fire warriors as your Flash Gitz mobz. Really fluffy for a Bad Moon army! Maybe the Waaagh is led by a super-Mek who loves making Gunz for his followers?
Witch Hunters - Awkward again, but imagine a horde of extremely fanatical Orks under the gaze of a Prophet of Gork, and every act they commit, the gods look down on them and reward them for the bloodshed, in the form of Faith Points. Plus Orks like to burn stuff, and there ALWAYS has to be an Arch-Arsonist of Charadon somewhere in the galaxy...
Dark Eldar - Piratical Free Bootin' Orkz! Not as tough as other Orks due to their preference to raid rather than all out assault, but they've an extremely gifted Mek who seems to have perfected the art of Hover transport, along with a very "talented" Painboy acting as a Haemonclus would. These Orks love the smell of fear and racing towards enemies as they flee in terror.
Daemonhunters - They're pretty awkward to cover with the Orks, it can be done... especially in the capacity of Tuska the Daemon killer. There's no reason why Tuska's Warband hasn't adapted to fighting Daemons constantly using Warp technology.
So yeah, that'sa few ideas and I think I've probably covered most armies there and given some ideas.. anyone else got any?